Ulster Overcoat

[Guest]

Dear pbc,

The cape is one of those things we like so much when we see them in old plates, close our eyes and fancy ourselves wearing them, but in real life it is a bit more difficult to fit in. Personally I would only have it on a country coat meant for long walks in cold weather, where the cape has a practical purpose - otherwise it risks looking a bit costumey today. A great temptation nevertheless
About the only overcoat that fits your bill (daytime & evening, formal and informal) which is NOT INAPPROPRIATE in any of your intended contexts is the Guard's coat. Everything else is more specific to day or evening (esp. in terms of colour) or formal / informal and looks a bit forced if worn out of context. I don't know if you like the military styling of the Guard's coat (I wanted to have one made about a year ago and got dissuaded by Michael Alden - at least for the time being - in favour of a simple dark blue DB Chesterfield, but I had different needs and priorities), but if you don't, I think you are better off with different overcoats made for day / evening wear.

Costi

[Guest]

Traditionally, there were two forms of Ulster overcoats. The first was called a "travelling Ulster" and it was these that had the detachable hood or cape. The somewhat dressier form of Ulster had a belted back but without these extra attachments. These look best in solid tan or camel colours or else in checks. Mine is made with a two toned herringbone weave of dark brown and black.

The Ulster was never dressy enough to wear with formal dress.

[Guest]

Traditionally, there were two forms of Ulster overcoats. The first was called a "travelling Ulster" and it was these that had the detachable hood or cape. The somewhat dressier form of Ulster had a belted back but without these extra attachments. These look best in solid tan or camel colours or else in checks. Mine is made with a two toned herringbone weave of dark brown and black.

The Ulster was never dressy enough to wear with formal dress.

Yet again I forgot to sign my above post.

What on earth is this discussion doing in the x#%$*! anonymous forum?????

I should also like to make it clear that this use of the term paletot is confined to the Italian language:



The usage of the term "paletot" varies enormously between French, German and English. Never at any point in history was the term "paletot" used in association with the Ulster in either the English or German language (nor probably French either). The use of the term here must therefore be unique to Italian.

The term paletot was used extremely imprecisely throughout most of the 19th century with it being applied to a new totally unrelated garment almost every decade. Only in latter 19th century did some English language authors define the garment with greater exactitude as an overcoat SB or DB with a side panel.

Sator

[Guest]

The term paletot was used extremely imprecisely throughout most of the 19th century with it being applied to a new totally unrelated garment almost every decade. Only in latter 19th century did some English language authors define the garment with greater exactitude as an overcoat SB or DB with a side panel. Sator

I should like to add to this discussion that in Portuguese “paletó” is a current word. It is used to refer to a “jacket”, whether of a suit or a sport jacket. (The word “jaqueta” is also current, but it is never used to refer to the upper part of a suit or a sport jacket; “jaqueta” refers only to such - preposterous - garments as leather jacket or jeans jacket).
Marcelo

[Guest]

Interesting Marcelo.

In French, I believe the the word jaquette refers to a morning coat:

http://www.masterhand.de/francais/servi ... x.php?id=4

The word paletot is no longer used in French. In English it is pronounced pal-ai-tot. The final "t" is pronounced.

It just goes to show how a word of the same origin can mean so many things in different languages!

Sator

[Guest]

Spelled jaket, jaquette also means morning coat in Danish, but in present day usage the English term seems to be almost as common (especially, perhaps, in advertising).

Milo

[Guest]

For what it's worth (since we are talking about Latin languages), there is "palton" in Romanian, which signifies a heavy, winter overcoat - obviously derived from "paletot". Another word, derived from "pardesus", describes a lighter topcoat.

[Guest]

Russian also includes "palto" as an overcoat, though I can't comment on the details of the meaning or original intent.

[Guest]

Russian also includes "palto" as an overcoat, though I can't comment on the details of the meaning or original intent.

The Russian term for a frock overcoat is a ренингота-пальто. I imagine this to a transliteration of the French term redingote-paletot. All of the Russian aristocracy spoke French in Czarist days.

Sator

[Guest]

While reading through A History of Men's Fashion, on page 124 a caption mentioned the ulster overcoat and explained that the ultra caped overcoat for formal occassions was the MacFarlane. No other information was given. the best I can find so far from an internet search is from Brewster's Dictionary of Modern Phrase and Fable:

A type of overcoat incorporating a shoulder cape and with slits at the waist to allow access to pockets in clothing worn beneath. The name is presumably that of its original Scottish designer or manufacturer. The word is first recorded in english in 1920 but is foundin Grench much earlier, in an issue of Le Monde illustre for 1859.

No pictures have been found so far. Does anyone have information on or pictures of this garment that they care to share? Is it the same as the opera cloak?

Thank you,
pbc

[Guest]

My apologies for the typos. It is found in (not "foundin") French (not "Grench") in Le Monde illustre.

pbc

[Guest]

No pictures have been found so far. Does anyone have information on or pictures of this garment that they care to share? Is it the same as the opera cloak?

Thank you,
pbc

Sorry. All of my sources are silent on this one. And I have MANY.

Could it be Highland dress?

Sator

[Guest]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/1999/oc ... conandoyle

Dressed in his best deerstalker and MacFarlane overcoat, he turned up at the Paris museum dedicated to the best known of France's multitudinous decorations.

This may just be another word for an Inverness cloak:



They were often cut a bit differently to the full dress versions worn in the evenings. But cutter's texts always call both day and evening versions an "Inverness".

Sator

[Guest]

This may just be another word for an Inverness cloak:
They were often cut a bit differently to the full dress versions worn in the evenings. But cutter's texts always call both day and evening versions an "Inverness".

If I recall correctly, the caption in A History of Men's Fashion, mentioned the ulster, inverness, and macfarlane separately. I'll check once again to get the actual text. The image, by the way, was more generic and was not designed to specifically show the garments mentioned, as far as I can tell.

pbc

[Guest]

Watch out - that text was originally French. Translators are often unaware that a borrowed term such as paletot means something different in every language!

Sator